英语的“食色，性也”以及“白马非马”

retro

回国后做了海蛇（“蛇”在粤语里表示懒，散漫的意思），无所事事之余，只好泡书。离家去广州图书馆的路程，于我来讲，有上这车，下那车之遥，所以每跑一趟，故意找些“诸子”或“斯基”较为耐读一点的文字，只为图个清心过日子。

哈！在广图外文部，竟然有本“Mencius”。自问也是算个孔孟之徒，幸亏没读作“门修斯”。急忙翻到那一页求解，Appetite for food and sex is nature。

书的作者是D. C. Lau，Penguin Classics出版，非泛泛之作。读书后，做了一点googling，才知道作者是刘殿爵，香港中文大学终身教授，曾任国语文学系主任多年。早在50年代，刘老先生已是英国伦敦大学亚非研究院的中国哲学教授。

不过，Appetite for food and sex is nature在感觉上太过直白，欠缺古韵。为求多一点信雅达，找到了另一个名字，Bryan W. Van Norden，为纽约瓦萨学院（Vassar College）东亚系哲学系教授，正Caucasian是也。从网上资料所知，不少国学典籍的英译都是出自于此公的手笔，或由经他审核。

通过他的网页，读到了他另一篇《白马论》中的“白马非马”英译文字：

Can it be that a white horse is not a horse?（白马非马，可乎？）
Advocate: It can.（赞同者：可）
Objector: How?（反对者：何哉？）
Advocate: "Horse" is that by means of which one names the shape. "White" is that by means of which one names the color. What names the color is not what names the shape. Hence, I say that a white horse is not a horse.（赞同者：马者，所以命形也。白者，所以命色也。命色者，非命形也，故曰白马非马。）
Objector: If there are white horses, one cannot say that there are no horses. If one cannot say that there are no horses, doesn't that mean that there are horses? For there to be white horses is for there to be horses. How could it be that the white ones are not horses?（反对者：有白马，不可谓无马也。不可谓无马者，非马也？有白马为有马，白之非马，何也？）
Advocate: If one wants a horse, that extends to a yellow or black horse. But if one wants a white horse, that does not extend to a yellow or black horse. Suppose that a white horse were a horse. Then what one wants [in the two cases] would be the same. If what one wants were the same, then a white [horse] would not differ from a horse. If what one wants does not differ, then how is it that a yellow or black horse is sometimes acceptable and sometimes unacceptable? It is clear that acceptable and unacceptable are mutually contrary. Hence, yellow and black horses are the same [in that, if there are yellow or black horses], one can respond that there are horses, but one cannot respond that there are white horses. Thus, it is evident that a white horse is not a horse. （赞同者：求马，黄、黑马皆可致。求白马，黄、黑马不可致。使白马乃马也，是所求一也，所求一者，白者不异马也。所求不异，如黄、黑马有可有不可，何也？可与不可其相非明。故黄、黑马一也，而可以应有马，而不可以应有白马，是白马之非马审矣。）

“白马非马”是战国时代的一个故事。说的是赵国食客公孙龙骑着一匹白马到秦国去，时因赵国马瘟虐肆，秦国封关防疫。到了函谷关，秦国官吏不许。于是，公孙龙就提出了“白马非马”命题，凭着三寸不烂之舌，一番雄辩把守关的弄得瞠目结舌，无法解答。最终，还是让公孙龙和那匹“非马”混过了关。

读完了Mencius，仍然不解疑问：“食色，性也”就是Appetite for food and sex is nature那么简单？诸位，有何高见？请赐教。

fancao

欢迎retro ！

金凤

哇，看了这段英文的“白马非马”，我头都晕了。还是中文言简意明。

怪不得中翻英，字数增加20%至30%， 翻译费比英翻中高多了。

“Appetite for food and sex is nature” , 让我想起了“ 饮食男女”这个词。

云天

哇，看了这段英文的“白马非马”，我头都晕了。还是中文言简意明。

怪不得中翻英，字数增加20%至30%， 翻译费比英翻中高多了。

“Appetite for food and sex is nature” , 让我想起了“ 饮食男女”这个词。 ...
金凤 发表于 2009-8-26 01:38 AM

偶也被绕晕了。

retro

欢迎retro ！
fancao 发表于 2009-8-26 12:54 AM

谢凡草姐姐。呵呵。老尚爷在哪儿？挺挂念他的。

retro

谢金凤，云天阅读。

有好长一段时间没办法品尝英语之美，一直怀疑自己的功力不够。后来The New York Times的艺术评论读多了，才感悟到英语的逻辑美。中文，尤其是文言，每一个字都是很“忽悠”的，个中的意思要常用“六书”去理解。即使是奥巴马的文曲星说到咱夫子的“山径之蹊间，介然用之而成路，为间不用，则茅塞之矣。”（《孟子·尽心下》）也不过是A trail through the mountains, if used, becomes a path in a short time, but, if unused, becomes blocked by grass in an equally short time. 如此，仅仅如此而已。

云天

谢金凤，云天阅读。

有好长一段时间没办法品尝英语之美，一直怀疑自己的功力不够。后来The New York Times的艺术评论读多了，才感悟到英语的逻辑美。中文，尤其是文言，每一个字都是很“忽悠”的，个中的意思要常用 ...
retro 发表于 2009-8-26 08:05 PM

----中文，尤其是文言，每一个字都是很“忽悠”的

好象是这么回事呢。
不过英文，尤其是诗，有时也很忽悠。

retro

在86年的一期《英语世界》里，刊有一首sonnet "The Novelist" by W. H. Auden。那时候是不太懂，现在是译不通。有请那位高人出手，试一试中译。

The Novelist

By W. H. Auden

Encased in talent like a uniform,
The rank of every poet is well known;
They can amaze us like a thunderstorm,
Or die so young, or live for years alone.

They can dash forward like hussars: but he
Must struggle out of his boyish gift and learn
How to be plain and awkward, how to be
One after whom none think it worth to turn.

For, to achieve his lightest wish, he must
Become the whole of boredom, subject to
Vulgar complaints like love, among the Just

Be just, among the Filthy filthy too,
And in his own weak person, if he can,
Must suffer dully all the wrongs of Man.

云天

等不到高手的商籁玉，低手先来抛砖，楼主不介意吧？ 敬请斧正！


The Novelist
W. H. Auden

小说家
W。H。奥登
云天译

Encased in talent like a uniform,
The rank of every poet is well known;
They can amaze us like a thunderstorm,
Or die so young, or live for years alone.

裹在才华里象穿了制服一般
每个诗人的级别都众所周知；
他们会象暴雨般让我们惊叹，
或英年早逝或多年独守孤寂。

They can dash forward like hussars: but he
Must struggle out of his boyish gift and learn
How to be plain and awkward, how to be
One after whom none think it worth to turn.

他们会象轻骑兵般冲锋向前，
他必须挣脱少年幼稚的天赋，
学会如何变得既笨拙又平凡，
学会怎样变得毫不引人注目。

For, to achieve his lightest wish, he must
Become the whole of boredom, subject to
Vulgar complaints like love, among the Just
Be just, among the Filthy filthy too,

为了要实现他最微小的憧憬，
他必须变得彻头彻尾的荒唐，
并容忍粗俗的抱怨诸如爱情；
公正中公正污浊中一同肮脏。

And in his own weak person, if he can,
Must suffer dully all the wrongs of Man.

假如微弱的他能够尽力尝试，
他必须忍受人类所有的过失。

retro

9# 云天
out of this world!

waspking

佩服云天啥都能译。 俺很多都看不懂， 更别说译了。

见解

谢金凤，云天阅读。

有好长一段时间没办法品尝英语之美，一直怀疑自己的功力不够。后来The New York Times的艺术评论读多了，才感悟到英语的逻辑美。中文，尤其是文言，每一个字都是很“忽悠”的，个中的意思要常用 ...
retro 发表于 2009-8-26 08:05 PM

线主大概指现代英语吧. 现代汉语不见得那么"忽悠"了. 原来有位学 English Literature 的哥们(室友), 经常借来SKY-HIGH 的参考书, 莎士比亚五的. 据他讲, 那才真叫"一头雾水"呢. :)

见解

佩服云天啥都能译。 俺很多都看不懂， 更别说译了。
waspking 发表于 2009-9-3 10:02 AM

Nod, nod.

云天

谢楼主 Retro 鼓励！
很喜欢这首诗。颇有意味。  受益！

谢蜂王/见解鼓励！
欧不懂摄影，又没看过几部电视剧，只好瞎涂两个字。

蜂王，欧就是因为看不懂，才译呢。为了译，只好一字一字慢慢读。
欧真是献拙呢。昨天贴上来后就等着接砖呢。   多谢你一直鼓励。

各位夏安！

retro

也谢蜂王和见解。与云天同感。这诗，言志，舍身求仁之大志，耐人寻味。

云天

也谢蜂王和见解。与云天同感。这诗，言志，舍身求仁之大志，耐人寻味。
retro 发表于 2009-9-4 10:40 AM

楼主高见。

Please continue.  I'm all ears.  :)

retro

呵呵，云天握手。

据说Auden来过中国，到过广州（嘻嘻）。过去国内的评论说他晚年革命意志消沉，皈依宗教，大概是章太炎式的人物。而WIKI的评价是：His work is noted for its stylistic and technical achievements, its engagement with moral and political issues, and its variety of tone, form and content. The central themes of his poetry are love, politics and citizenship, religion and morals, and the relationship between unique human beings and the anonymous, impersonal world of nature.

的确，他以后的诗，激情不再，没有了“The Novelist”的那种励志，鼓舞人心的力量。从他另一首“Funeral Blues ”中，可以感觉到这种“心灰意冷”。

Funeral Blues by W. H. Auden

Stop all the clocks, cut off the telephone,
Prevent the dog from barking with a juicy bone,
Silence the pianos and with muffled drum
Bring out the coffin, let the mourners come.

Let aeroplanes circle moaning overhead
Scribbling on the sky the message He is Dead.
Put crepe bows round the white necks of the public doves,
Let the traffic policemen wear black cotton gloves.

He was my North, my South, my East and West,
My working week and my Sunday rest,
My noon, my midnight, my talk, my song;
I thought that love would last forever: I was wrong.

The stars are not wanted now; put out every one,
Pack up the moon and dismantle the sun,
Pour away the ocean and sweep up the woods;
For nothing now can ever come to any good.

云天

谢谢楼主 Retro.
有英文诗或中译英的线，欧必定要去凑热闹。   个人hobby.
这条线有趣。受益。  

“Funeral Blues” 的确比较意气消沉， “nothing now can ever come to any good.”
诗人心境不同，笔下变幻的诗行便全然两样。

周五有闲，在后院踩了一圈。有空再译。

Auden 的诗，好象从前只读过一首。

云天

献拙。

这首诗好沉重啊。。。。

Funeral Blues by W. H. Auden

葬礼上的忧伤
W。H。 奥登
云天译

Stop all the clocks, cut off the telephone,
Prevent the dog from barking with a juicy bone,
Silence the pianos and with muffled drum
Bring out the coffin, let the mourners come.

停止所有的钟表，切断电话线，
丢块美味肉骨头，让狗不叫唤；
让琴音沉寂，让鼓声黯淡
抬出灵柩，让送葬者来哀挽。

Let aeroplanes circle moaning overhead
Scribbling on the sky the message He is Dead.
Put crepe bows round the white necks of the public doves,
Let the traffic policemen wear black cotton gloves.

让头顶呜咽盘旋的飞机
在天空写下他死去的消息。
把绉纱蝴蝶结，系在白鸽的颈上，
让交通警，把黑色的棉手套戴上。

He was my North, my South, my East and West,
My working week and my Sunday rest,
My noon, my midnight, my talk, my song;
I thought that love would last forever: I was wrong.

他曾是我的北，我的南，我的东和西，
我工作的平日，和我周日的休憩，
我的正午，我的子夜，我的话，我的歌；
我以为爱会地久天长：我错了。

The stars are not wanted now; put out every one,
Pack up the moon and dismantle the sun,
Pour away the ocean and sweep up the woods;
For nothing now can ever come to any good.

如今不再需要星星；熄灭每一星光亮，
收起月亮，也拆除太阳，
把海水倾光，把树林铲平；
因为如今再没什么会带来好光景。