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477.Intelligence and genes as well is ideal construct.

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发表于 2024-7-6 16:57:33 | 显示全部楼层 |阅读模式
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 楼主| 发表于 2024-7-8 15:44:41 | 显示全部楼层
“因为难以用自然选择解释,一般认为是性选择的结果。”

Is sexual selection not natural selection (ai, I am not the one who has a biology-related major, or Ph.D)? Do you really know what natural selection is? In animal world, natural selection is realized by sexual selection, generally speaking.If not, then what else? Asexual reproduction aside.

"Sexual selection is a mode of natural selection in which some individuals outreproduce others of a population because they are better at securing mates." wiki


没有认真读,可是一眼就看出弊病(I'm sorry,也许是我的弊病:和Lexus医生一样,不喜欢被误导!)。逻辑推理的毛病:

你举的例子是肤色(肥胖变异也是可以目睹的!)。这样的 phenotype, which is defined as some observable trait of an organism prescribed at least in part by its genes,是一眼就看见的。如果这样的话,你是说聪明量一量头骨的大小,舌头的厚度,或者拇指的长度就可以得出?

(“如果接下来再把“双脑花儿”和“瓜娃子”分开成两拨”...that is your wishful thinking, dear. 2“双脑花儿s”may produce a “瓜娃子”and vice versa. To be a true scientist is not like mind-controlling a group of“瓜娃子” , analyzing (thinking) is a must. Luguo, you are too light minded on a serious matter! Sorry again. )


On the other hand, if not an observable trait, there is no phenotype! It would NOT result in sexual selection, right? There is NOT resulting in populations that specialize for particular ecological niches that may eventually result in the emergence of new species (high IQ tribes), then how can you find the gene for high IQ since it is not there in the first place.

There are traits, but not observable (if not observable, it is not definite!) Could you describe what exactly is“双脑花儿”和“瓜娃子”? long legs, thick lips, big nose?

I think high iq and genius are mutations, chances, and random for the most part, and therefore, there is the normal curve!


phenotype--think about the word "phenomenon".

The key word is “observable”, dear! If “observable”, you will not use ambiguous terms as “双脑花儿”和“瓜娃子”, you would be more direct.


When luguo misses me, I will come!

lexus wrote: (5/20/2013 0:59)
小路不兴这样吊人胃口的。

不过我猜他们没找到。找到的话,世界各大报的头版头条都是他们了。下届诺贝尔生物医学奖也是他们的了。

对了,小路你的肥胖基因找到没有?
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 楼主| 发表于 2024-7-8 15:45:11 | 显示全部楼层
On the other hand, do you confuse gene with allele?


"Colloquial usage of the term gene (e.g. "good genes", "hair color gene") may actually refer to an allele: a gene is the basic instruction鈥攁 sequence of nucleic acids (DNA or, in the case of certain viruses RNA), while an allele is one variant of that gene. " wiki


"In most cases, all people would have a gene for the trait in question, but certain people will have a specific allele of that gene, which results in the trait variant. Further, genes code for proteins, which might result in identifiable traits, but it is the gene, not the trait, which is inherited." wiki



that makes me think whether IQ is a trait or a construct. If it is the later, what happens?

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 楼主| 发表于 2024-7-8 15:45:36 | 显示全部楼层
内行? Thanks.

only read 3 books about evolution (plus a speech about evolution by My favorite philosopher Karl Popper), 《the selfish gene》,《the social conquest of the earth》,《Evolution in Four Dimensionsife and Mind: Philosophical Issues in Biology and Psychology》 (they are intensive reading though).


construct of genes? (it is the operationalization of genes. IS there another thread call "operation DNA" at baihua recently? I thought everybody at that thread understands this. It looks funny when people don't know what they are saying will say it anyway. I mean other people at the thread.)


A construct in the philosophy of science is an ideal object, where the existence of the thing may be said to depend upon a subject's mind. This, as opposed to a "real" object, where existence does not seem to depend on the existence of a mind.

In a scientific theory, particularly within psychology, a hypothetical construct is an explanatory variable which is not directly observable. For example, the concepts of intelligence and motivation are used to explain phenomena in psychology, but neither is directly observable. A hypothetical construct differs from an intervening variable in that it has properties and implications which have not been demonstrated in empirical research. These serve as a guide to further research. An intervening variable, on the other hand, is a summary of observed empirical findings.

The creation of constructs is a part of operationalization, especially the creation of theoretical definitions. The usefulness of one conceptualization over another depends largely on construct validity.

Concepts that are considered constructs by this definition include that which is designated by the symbol "3" or the word "liberty". Scientific hypotheses and theories (e.g. evolutionary theory, gravitational theory), as well as classifications (e.g. in biological taxonomy) are also conceptual entities considered to be constructs. WIKI

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Con ... sophy_of_science%29

Simple examples of real objects (that are not constructs) include lawyers, silver fish and undershirts.
Other Examples of Constructs:

In Biology
Genes, evolution, illness, taxonomy

In Physics/Astrophysics
Black holes, the Big Bang, Dark Matter, String Theory, molecular physics or atoms, gravity, center of mass

In Psychology
Intelligence or knowledge, emotions, personality, moods



Luguo wrote: (5/28/2013 18:17)

a trait or a construct --- what do you mean by "construct"?

事物 wrote: (5/28/2013 15:39)

瓦, 内行看门道。 这个是不容易分清楚,所以在文章中专门写了这么一段:

“我想在这里顺便澄清一个十分混淆的概念。 一般而言,在新闻或科普文章里提到“糖尿病基因”,“聪明基因”,其实指的是在某个具体基因里找到了DNA突变,而且这突变够解释那个疾病的机理,或者某个性状的差异。 比如我前面说找到了一个小鼠的肥胖基因,真正找到的呢,其实是一个基因里的一个核苷酸突变,这个突变使得同一个基因有了两个不同的基因型,一个“正常”,有这个基因型的小鼠体重正常;有"突变"基因型的小鼠则肥胖。 同理,我们需要找到能够解释人群肤色差异的基因突变,才算找到了“肤色基因”。”

On the other hand, do you confuse gene with allele?


"Colloquial usage of the term gene (e.g. "good genes", "hair color gene") may actually refer to an allele: a gene is the basic instruction—a sequence of nucleic acids (DNA or, in the case of certain viruses RNA), while an allele is one variant of that gene. " wiki


"In most cases, all people would have a gene for the trait in question, but certain people will have a specific allele of that gene, which results in the trait variant. Further, genes code for proteins, which might result in identifiable traits, but it is the gene, not the trait, which is inherited." wiki



that makes me think whether IQ is a trait or a construct. If it is the later, what happens?
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 楼主| 发表于 2024-7-8 15:46:05 | 显示全部楼层
"说到平均值,想起研究种族差异的始作俑者Francis Galton的话:"


I like to pick up books by more famous authors (such as Richard Dawkins, EO Wilson, etc. ) just as I always listen to music played by virtuosos.

mediocrity is NOT the solution, dear!
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 楼主| 发表于 2024-7-8 15:46:21 | 显示全部楼层
then intelligence is a construct and IQ is an intervening variable.
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 楼主| 发表于 2024-7-8 15:46:59 | 显示全部楼层
not sure about Wilson, but I doubt Dawkins' name will last as long as Galton's.
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 楼主| 发表于 2024-7-8 15:47:16 | 显示全部楼层
not sure about Wilson, but I doubt Dawkins' name will last as long as Galton's.
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 楼主| 发表于 2024-7-8 15:47:33 | 显示全部楼层
an eugenicist?

o my freak god!


luguo, when you have time, take care of your study and researches. Read more books, I mean read, really read, read for yourself not for other people. It's worth more than talking with mediocre netters in this site.

If you can't draw wisdom from a conversation, only for talk's sake, it is a waste(though making you feel better). A mind is a terrible thing to waste. If you are not born of a mediocrity, don't learn to be one! You should be intelligent enough to see through what people around really want from you.

Virtue reality is not a reality to real people!

bye, till next time!

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 楼主| 发表于 2024-7-8 15:47:52 | 显示全部楼层
IQ is an operational measurement of intelligence.

just missed this.

Luguo wrote: (5/28/2013 20:16)
then intelligence is a construct and IQ is an intervening variable.
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 楼主| 发表于 2024-7-8 15:48:22 | 显示全部楼层
The term "natural selection" was popularized by Charles Darwin who intended it to be compared with artificial selection, which is now called selective breeding.
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 楼主| 发表于 2024-7-8 15:50:57 | 显示全部楼层
I mean what he really meant is that if not artificial selection, it is "natural selection".

therefore, I will not argue with that " 严格地说,这两者区别很大,个体存活优势(natural selection) 和mating优势 (sexual selection)的区别。自然选择是survival 决定的,而sexual selection是mating partner的选择。这两者并不总一致。比如公鹿角越来越漂亮是性选择的结果,其实不利于个体生存(逃跑起来就不方便)。"

sexual selection is a mode of natural selection.
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 楼主| 发表于 2024-7-8 15:51:16 | 显示全部楼层
I mean what he really meant is that if not artificial selection, it is "natural selection".

therefore, I will not argue with that " 严格地说,这两者区别很大,个体存活优势(natural selection) 和mating优势 (sexual selection)的区别。自然选择是survival 决定的,而sexual selection是mating partner的选择。这两者并不总一致。比如公鹿角越来越漂亮是性选择的结果,其实不利于个体生存(逃跑起来就不方便)。"

sexual selection is a mode of natural selection.
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 楼主| 发表于 2024-7-8 15:51:36 | 显示全部楼层
as long as they have more offspring carrying their genes, they are natural selection survivors. Other things are minor.

I actually love Dawkins' 《selfish genes》! and accept his ideas. I have to go, will be back later.

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 楼主| 发表于 2024-7-8 15:51:55 | 显示全部楼层
they may be minor but provide much of the beauty in life.
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 楼主| 发表于 2024-7-8 15:52:49 | 显示全部楼层
被欺骗也是一种美德?

基因和DNA完全不是一个概念。

GENE是个construct, an ideal object,where the existence of the thing depends upon a subject's mind,可以有operation,

可是 DNA (Deoxyribonucleic acid) 是脱氧核糖核酸,也就是说DNA是个 real object (luguo 知道分子式吧),何来 operation?


如果说别人不知道这些事情,可以理解,路过也不知道,就有些费解。

这个网上总是有点这样的线,就无可信感。




提个小建议,路过以后写东西要多思,你这题目我预计你搞不出个东东来。

As I talking with a researching friend at xiaozhao, searching literature is the first step of doing a research, this step for your research is a failure.Because, there is nothing new turned out but something 100 years old. It seems you didn't read more recent books in this field. You got to go with the trend of your field.

If you are looking for the genes for 精神分裂症(schizophrenia), that would be more productive:1,easier to identify, 2, more meaningful.

A fine researcher is usually a fine philosopher.
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 楼主| 发表于 2024-7-8 15:53:21 | 显示全部楼层
“天地良心!我是来回找了多遍”


原雨MM,

用放大镜在一片论文里面找路过的名字也是一种表扬? I am confused.

那么多个作者,我估计刷瓶子的都包括里面了, right?



“再赞路教的文章”


连我都能看出点毛病来。。。


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 楼主| 发表于 2024-7-8 15:55:01 | 显示全部楼层
"Remember having a discussion with 八爷 before, He is for and I am opposed to continued human evolution. Would like to hear from more experts."


surely enough, human is still evolving, but it is no longer natural selection alone, it is natural selection plus cultural selection as richard dawkins says.


not an expert, but could figure things out and love to do it too.

I think I'm ready to talk about evolutionary psychology (remember you had a thread long time ago?), but don't have time now and we just need a good site too (I mean we could have more people to throw in the ideas)

I will try to find a good time.

gz wrote: (5/29/2013 3:54)
。。。

The question is, are we humans still evolving, or will we still be evolving in the future?

In a smaller scale and narrower sense, does sexual selection still work? Do the blued eyed and blond haired reproduce more than others, so that they would eventually dominate the human species, just like those male deers with big antlers and peacocks with lavish tails?


Remember having a discussion with 八爷 before, He is for and I am opposed to continued human evolution. Would like to hear from more experts.
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